Adolescent Rebellion?

[Nano]

Connor had a big day yesterday. Long walk/run in the morning, trip to the vet's for a rabies shot, (he weighs 67.6 pounds!), visit at my sister's, long traffic jam on the way home then a 20 minute break until we had to jump back into the car for obedience class. He could barely stay awake to eat his dinner, then into his pen at 8:30. He slept like a rock until 5:00 this morning.

I had to work at 6:30 this morning so we were out at 5:30 after his breakfast. He was behaving fine until we got to the park where I let him off leash. He raced around for awhile always keeping me in sight.

Then he decided it was time for play and bounded up behind me, knocking my leg and almost knocking ME over. That was just the beginning. He started chasing and jumping and nipping at me. When I went to put his leash on he kept nipping at me (I won't say 'bite' but it hurt enough that I cried out a couple of times.). He even growled at one point. I have NEVER heard Connor growl - even in play. I think that's all it was but it surprised me. I ordered him to sit and he did but popped back up and started again. I finally grabbed him by his jowls, lifted him up, shook him (gently), looked into his eyes and said, "Stop that. NOW." Then I made him sit/stay for a minute and gave him the heel command. He walked fine then. By the time we got home he knew he'd displeased me and was quiet and well behaved. Of course I did the no-touch, no-talk, no-eye contact thing once I got him under control.

Was this just puppy hijinx, rough play or the beginning of his adolescent challenge period? Any suggestions on how to deal with him when he gets out of control like that? I try ignoring him but that's hard when he's jumping at you, nipping and grabbing the leash out of your hand!

[Meadow]

Faith gets JUST like you described, when she's overly-hungry or overly-tired. I can usually get her under control, much like you did with Connor, but unfortunately, my daughters cannot. Keira (13) has come home in tears on a few occasions, b/c Faith knocked over someone's toddler and Keira couldn't control her, or Faith was doing that jump-nipping thing and freaking Keira out. I have heard Keira from the backyard, crying, "HELP! Someone HELP me!"

I wondered too about the adolescent thing - but for Faith, that truly started at 9 months. She growled at Keira when Keira pet her as Faith chewed on a pig ear. Faith showed her teeth to me - ONCE - and she won't be doing that anytime soon! I downed her, and didn't let her move an INCH until I felt she was calm again.

She stopped heeling properly, was more challenging when told to "sit", etc. It's been a struggle for the past few weeks. I read in books to start training all over again - but that they will *remember* sooner what to do. Consistency and raising the bar of expectation is what I do for those times.

Oh, and about 2 weeks ago, at the off-leash park, I was trying to encourage Faith to run out her energy, so Karli (my 10 yr old) and I were running and Faith LOVED that. However, Faith is either uncoordinated, or she was just stupid (??) but she ran, absolutely full-tilt, right at me from behind. She knocked BOTH my legs out from under me and I landed HARD on my butt. I already have chronic back pain, so for a moment, I thought I was going to end up badly injured. But my pride was the worst injury, hahaha, so I got up, and limped around. Now I am VERY careful when I get Faith to run. I AVOID her, rather than assuming she has the ability and desire to avoid ME!

So be careful for Connor - he just may take your legs out from under you, and you can't risk falling on your arm again!

Are you more anxious on the mornings when you only have an hour before you have to be at work? Maybe you are feeling stressed and rushed on those early mornings like today, and Connor senses that energy?

He weighs HOW MUCH?! roflllllllll He is one BIG BOY, Nancy!!!!!!!! WOW!!

~Maureen

[Sue]

Sounds like you have the teenage golden on your hands now Nancy. I remember those days well when Nelson was in his teenage days. Some days it was like Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde. Good as gold then out of nowhere the little devil would come out. I think you did the right thing being firm with him when he was like that. The ignoring him never did anything for me just made it worse. Being firm and consistent worked the best. 67 pounds already wow how they grow so fast.

[Nano]

Maureen - Last night at class we were heading out the door for our break. It's a glass door so you can probably guess the rest. Connor banged right into it! He's lucky he has a hard head but it was so funny!!! He kind of shook his head like a puppy in a cartoon. And, yes, he is 67.6 pounds. The vet said he's done with his big growth spurt but expects he'll top out at the full adult male weight (80-85 lbs?) His adult teeth are all in and they are lovely. BTW, he was much more settled at class last night. Probably exhasuted! The trainer had two of her Goldens there with her. Connor snuggled right up to them with his big paws over one of the other one's paws. They looked so cute!

Sue - Connor was behaving EXACTLY like Nelson. Maybe they have been exchanging
d(oggie)-mail?

[Sue]

It's hard to say what those dogs are up to when I'm not home and when there's a computer to use...doggie emails to Connor on how to be a golden teenager!! All I can say is that it is a phase and it too will pass. Be consitent and firm and don't let him get away with anything when he's being like that no matter how cute he is. And he is one cutie pie.

[cheslyn1]

I am sitting here giggling...sorry Nancy it is a phase we dog owners get to deal with. Also do not be surprised if you get a few times the 'empty look'. That is where the dog just looks at you...as they completely forgot what a sit is.

And then you get the devil racing....where the dog just runs in circles for no reason. Even Maci just sits and stares when Harley does this. And this is also where the normally quiet dog finds their voice but again is always barking/howling at nothing.

Like Sue says - consistent and firm. This is the hard phase to me....they are still so darn cute but you know you have to set the boundaries, keep training or they will stay monsters!

The thing I always try to remember during the teenage phase is to keep the training sessions short. Do lots of them but keep them short. This way if Connor starts being silly or terrible or.... the training session is already over and no one gets frusterated.

[Nano]

Last night at obedience, I asked the trainer if there was a technique to calm Connor down before class. She said to put him in a sit. I told her I do that but he just pops up again. I asked her what she thought of the Martingale. She said it's okay for smaller dogs but for Connor she would use the prong. Later when we were doing the heeling exercise, she nodded at me and commented on how calm he was. "He's fine in the actual class," I said, "It's the down times."

Later we were doing a heeling exercise where we turn the dog and walk them in a small circle, once one way then the other. When Connor was on the outside of me, he started his leash biting. I asked the trainer how to stop it. She came up and said, "Stop." Connor stopped but then he picked it up again. She made him stop again and he got a bit mouthy so she did that thing where you shove your hand back into his throat. Again, worked for a second then he started up. Not really bad but enough so she could see what he does. She asked me if he nips at my hands and I told her yes, he also grabs at my clothes.

"You should use a training collar on that dog."
"But he's so gentle. He doesn't do this all the time."
"Yes, he's gentle," she said, looking at Connor. "But he's showing little signs that he's trying to dominate you."

Sigh. That really depressed me. I did (almost) everything right since he was a baby when it comes to the pack leader mentality. I make him sit before his meals. He watches me, not the bowl, until I say it's 'okay' to eat. I feed the cats before him. I mix his food with my hands. He sits before every doorway and entrance and I make him wait until I go through first. He sits at every corner, now automatically. When I tell him to go into his pen he goes (even if sometimes he does a circuit of the livingroom first LOL). I control his toys and the games we play. He knows what it means when I say 'settle'. He calms down with visitors and out visiting much faster than any puppy his age I've ever known. Strangers comment on how well behaved he is. But he's still trying to dominate me.

After she told me that I felt so down that I was very subdued with Connor. When class was over we went to the car and he waited patiently while I belted his harness in. I didn't talk on the way home or when we got home. He came over a couple of times and nudged me but I ignored him. He knew something was up; he could tell my demeanor was different. Then I told him to go into his pen and he settled there for the night.

This morning I heard him whining to go out. Usually he barks once to let me know he's up and needs to go potty. This time I just heard him fidgeting and a few little whines. I let him out to do his business. After a bit I went to the door and whistles a couple of times. When I didn't see him, I called his name. He appeared immeidately. I told him to 'come' and he came into the house. Now he's hanging around still wondering what's up. He came over and tried to dig in the office paper bin. I "tssted" at him and he backed off. Now he's lying down beside me with his pet goose toy.

This is my problem with the whole pack leader thing. I can't seem to maintain the pack leader calmness without feeling removed from him. It's supposed to be a calm assertive energy not aloofness.

I can't believe with all my careful work and consistency that I still have a dog that's trying to dominate me. Yesterday he was chasing the cat and even knocked into Scat. When I tried to stop him he bounded away. (Obviously his leg is just fine). He's never chased the cats before. And how do you stop him from playing 'keep away' with you?

It really depresses me! Is it because I'm not a big person? Am I such a weakling? I've been a lot firmer with him than other people I know with their pups but he still can see through me.

Just a rant. Thanks for listening.

[Lisa Schuyler]

Nano, you need to remember that he's just a puppy!! If he is like most golden retrievers, he will continue to challenge you until he at least 4 years old. That doesn't mean you did anything wrong, or that Connor is a dominate dog, or a bad dog. It just means he is a DOG!

Just be consistent, keep him exercised, and keep up the training. It will all fall into place. I promise!

[Nano]

Thanks, Lisa.

I never thought he was a 'bad' dog. I blamed myself for not being a strong enough leader. I guess I could have asked for a more submissive dog but the breeder thought I could handle him. And if I had another dog, it wouldn't be Connor!

4 years old? Are you kidding me? I knew Goldens stayed puppy-ish for a long time (maybe their lifetimes but I guess I never thought of the downside of puppy-ness. LOL. YIKES!

How do YOU handle dogs challenging you? Maybe there's a technique or something that I'm not aware of. Do you think I need to get him a training collar? He so rarely misbehaves that it seems an overreaction but if he's going to be hard to control I have to deal with it now, right?

[Lisa Schuyler]

Oh yes, Connor will likely challenge you for a few years yet!

When Monty got "crazy", I'd put him in his x-pen so he could have his alone time (and I could have mine! haha).

I've had many trainers and they all had a different angle. I know that one I had, if she had a dog that wouldn't stay in a down, she would put him in a down, leaving a collar and leash on him, and she would stand on the leash near his head so he couldn't get up. She would pay no attention to the dog while she did this (continuing her conversation, or watching tv, or anything else) and when the dog settled down and was quietly in a down, then she would release. She would repeat for longer periods of time until the dog learned to down-stay consistently.

I used a choke chain when I was training Monty on obedience tasks - a few minutes a day, and at classes. Then I could do quick corrections with the collar, if required. There is a theory that you should have an ordinary flat collar for fun times, and a training collar of a different material for training times, so the dog learns the difference, but I don't know if I fully buy into that - all of life is a training experience. I used lots of treats for training too, but at some point, both male goldens I've had now turned into sloppery brain-dead food addicts after a few minutes of training with treats.

A prong collar shouldn't be used by a trainer to give corrections. It works better for the dog to self-correct themselves. I used one on both Winger & Surf when they were young and I wanted to walk them without my arms keeping ripped out. When used properly, you always keep slack in the leash. When the dog pulls, the prong collar tightens, so they learn to not pull to be more comfortable.

Monty challenged me constantly. I can't say that I survived it without many tears. His game wasn't biting his leash, but standing in the back of the yard, still, without moving, when I called him to come. Now that he's almost 5, things are improving, but I still can't cut his nails without a team intervention (my husband and I vs. Monty). Everything was harder with Monty because he was my first puppy. I adopted my first Golden, Winger, when he was already 4 years old and perfect

Teaching Monty to "heel" turned out to be the best thing ever. When he hears that word, he fires himself to the heel position. I can't even remember how he learned that one so well, could have been the field training too, but now I use that for snapping him out of whatever he was into, as well as to stop him from pulling. Maybe when Connor is biting his leash, you could distract him by firing another command at him (like a down, or heel) so he forgets about the leash.

[Nano]

Thanks for the support, Lisa. It's a relief to know it isn't just me - that even experienced dog owners are challenged by their dogs.

Today we went out on the walk and he was walking perfectly until we reached a certain section of road that brings out the beast in him. He started biting the leash. I told him 'stop'. I put him in a sit. He continued and even mouthed my hand. I did the hand in the mouth thing but as soon as I stopped, he continued. I walked a few paces, turned direction and tried that a few times. I tried ignoring him.

I think he was doing it for attention more than dominance this time. After all, I've been aloof since last night and hadn't even looked him in the eye until he started the leash biting. So on one hand, maybe I should ignore him until he stops. But then you hear that the leash is an extension of you and biting it should not be tolerated under any circumstances. I know Cesar says that. Unfortunately, he doesn't tell you what to do about it!

It's true that Connor is my first Golden, my first dog! I've learned a lot through him which my next puppy will hopefully benefit from. (Did I say my NEXT puppy?). I think Connor would be an excellent mentor and companion for a puppy because he is so loving to other dogs. He loves people too (and treats!). It's a toss up on which of the three he loves most. I know his breeder said he would love me more than anyone or anything has ever loved me but I can't say that's true. He's pretty much an 'everyman's' dog. I don't feel any particular love coming from him that's just for me. I know Goldens are like that to some degree anyway but Connor is particularly independent. He thinks I'm okay, sometimes he shows affection for me but that's it.

I do think he would make an excellent hosptial visiting dog (once he calms down!). He really does love people and everyone responds to his good nature and pretty boy looks!

[Meadow]

Nancy, I have to get ready for my father-in-law's funeral in a few hours, so I am very limited on time and brain-space. However, I wanted to tell you that you sound JUST LIKE ME, when Faith hit about 5.5 or 6 months old. I was *very* discouraged with her not listening, and I did NOT want to use the prong collar on a GOLDEN RETRIEVER for cripes sake. I felt that I was the only one with a "gentle breed" that couldn't control her own dog. I got very depressed about it, and cried a lot for a few days.

I can only tell you my own experience - the flat collar did nothing. The martingale did nothing. The prong collar (rounded-tip) was the ONLY tool that worked for Faith and I. She had it on at all times at first, with the short leash, as her trainer recommended. She did NOT wear it during naps, or anytime she was in her crate.

It was *the* only tool that worked. I have, over time, gradually faded the prong collar down to only using it on her walks. She wears the martingale in the house 70% of the time. My Faith is a very, very, very strong-willed dog (puppy), and I know that these months (the first year or so) are so important to do training. So, despite the dirty looks I have been given (yes, it happens), my dog wears a prong collar, and I train her with it. Faith is astounding. I have no regrets, except for the awful things that people have said to me about my dog wearing a prong. I am VERY strong about it now - - I will not let someone else judge me, when I am doing *EVERYTHING* in my power to be a good, responsible dog-owner.

You will have to make the decision that is best for you. It's not your size that's important - Cesar is SHORT! lol

Ok - so sorry - I really have to run.

~Maureen

[Nano]

Thanks for taking the time to answer, Maureen. I am sorry for your loss.

I once asked about a prong collar at a local pet chain. They were very hostile about it and told me they did not sell them because they were cruel and inhumane. You and I both know that isn't true. It's how you USE the tool that matters.

I'm going to think on all this for awhile....

[Meadow]

Just so you know - there are TWO types of prong collar. You will notice that whenever I talk about Faith's, I clarify "rounded tip prong". The flat-tip, according to Faith's trainer, is inhumane and abusive. The *rounded tip*, in the hands of someone TRAINED in how to use it, is very humane.

Faith's trainer said:
"Someone once said to me, "How can YOU, a TRAINER, recommend using a PRONG collar?" and I replied, "A trainer is the ONLY one who SHOULD be recommending a prong collar, because a trainer will be TEACHING the person how to CORRECTLY and HUMANELY use one.""

I believe that is true. I saw the vet tech walking Faith to me in her prong, and the woman was asphixiating my poor dog!!! I was horrified! It should only be tight for *1 second*. That's IT! She was letting Faith PULL her way to me, while holding her back with the leash, and Faith was hardly able to BREATHE! DIMWIT! That was the first and *last* time I allowed ANYONE untrained to walk my dog on her prong.

Anyway - I wanted to leave you with that - I have to scoot!
~M~

[cheslyn1]

I like Lisa's idea of giving out commands to distract him and other thing is if you know where on the walk he acts up, try walking with circles, turns, etc, etc or running for a block. Another thing to try is having a toy he likes to carry around and give him that. I do a lot of trying something that will prevent the bad behavorior from even starting. I am certain as he gets older he will quit.....remember you never thought he would get used to the crate....

AND you are doing SUPER and have a SUPER puppy! He is friendly, not skittish, barky or a fighter with other people or dogs. He is learning commands, house trained and a golden. He is perfect but a puppy, and you are perfect but too loving...darn it girl I will take the too loving for a golden owner any day!

[Nano]

Yes, I knew about the two types of prong collars. The trainer specifically said the rounded one.

What a horror story about the vet tech! They should know better. And if they don't know how to use something that could potentially hurt an animal, they should ask you to come back and get her.